|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 12, 2008 22:08:10 GMT -5
Make Comments Here.
|
|
|
Post by T.Mag56 on Nov 16, 2008 21:28:26 GMT -5
I don't see Gamboa anywhere in your 126 area. Not even in the upcoming prospects sub-section. A recount, I demand it!
Also, I think Cuban heavy Odlanier Solis should deserve a shout out for us WATCHMEN, in his respectful sub-section. Where does David Haye fit in, now?
I like where you put Linares.
|
|
|
Post by T.Mag56 on Nov 16, 2008 21:34:07 GMT -5
One more thing, as far as Lightweights are concerned. This is controversial, maybe. Does Juan Diaz really deserve a spot above both JMM and Pacquiao? I'm not sure.
I like your respect for Campbell, its due, but let's look at this field, and think about the overall quality. To be fair, JMM has fought once at 135 (but beat a very classy fighter), after the Campbell/Diaz fight, I'm not sure Diaz should be stacked on higher ground that Marquez. We're talking about JMM and Pacquiao, here.
|
|
|
Post by PBD on Nov 16, 2008 23:35:18 GMT -5
Great job on the rankings Paul.
I agree with Mag's post on Gamboa and Solis. Also how about these guys to watch for:
Daniel Jacobs at 168 Peter Quillen at 160 Ronald Hearns at 154
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 17, 2008 1:09:34 GMT -5
One more thing, as far as Lightweights are concerned. This is controversial, maybe. Does Juan Diaz really deserve a spot above both JMM and Pacquiao? I'm not sure. I like your respect for Campbell, its due, but let's look at this field, and think about the overall quality. To be fair, JMM has fought once at 135 (but beat a very classy fighter), after the Campbell/Diaz fight, I'm not sure Diaz should be stacked on higher ground that Marquez. We're talking about JMM and Pacquiao, here. The official take on this issue is that Diaz has beaten countless quality Lightweights and lost a close split decision to Campbell while Marquez and Pacquiao have only 2 Lightweight bouts between them. What someone did in one division should have no bearing on their rankings in another.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 17, 2008 1:15:29 GMT -5
I don't see Gamboa anywhere in your 126 area. Not even in the upcoming prospects sub-section. A recount, I demand it! Also, I think Cuban heavy Odlanier Solis should deserve a shout out for us WATCHMEN, in his respectful sub-section. Where does David Haye fit in, now? I like where you put Linares. The problem with Gamboa is that he's been jumping back and forth between Feather and Super Feather. I suspect that when he wins a minor title, he will settle into one division and debut quite highly. Solis is in my line of vision and Haye will be ranked in the "5 to Watch" section when the HW rankings are updated. He can only break the top 20 when he beats a top 20 fighter.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 17, 2008 1:20:22 GMT -5
Great job on the rankings Paul. I agree with Mag's post on Gamboa and Solis. Also how about these guys to watch for: Daniel Jacobs at 168 Peter Quillen at 160 Ronald Hearns at 154 Quillin has only fought 3 10-rounders, all in the nether-region between 160 and 168. Jacobs has yet to fight a 10 rounder Ronald Hearns has only fought 1 10 rounder. Remember, official bouts under the BTBC rules are 10 or 12 rounders between 2 fighters in the same weight division.
|
|
|
Post by PBD on Nov 17, 2008 17:52:28 GMT -5
Great job on the rankings Paul. I agree with Mag's post on Gamboa and Solis. Also how about these guys to watch for: Daniel Jacobs at 168 Peter Quillen at 160 Ronald Hearns at 154 Quillin has only fought 3 10-rounders, all in the nether-region between 160 and 168. Jacobs has yet to fight a 10 rounder Ronald Hearns has only fought 1 10 rounder. Remember, official bouts under the BTBC rules are 10 or 12 rounders between 2 fighters in the same weight division. Thats fair, but you know your just delaying the inevitable. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 17, 2008 21:36:37 GMT -5
Those guys'll be there soon enough.
A lot of times prospects get over hyped and end up getting ranked too high too soon. I designed the rankings on purpose to eliminate the over-hyping of prospects so that we'd have to wait to see them step up before classifying them. IMO, it gives a clearer idea of which prospects are for real and which were just hype.
|
|
|
Post by T.Mag56 on Nov 20, 2008 4:16:17 GMT -5
I agree with your assessment, and I expect both Gamboa and Solis in the up and coming fighters to WATCH sub section in your next set of lists.
|
|
|
Post by T.Mag56 on Nov 20, 2008 22:42:35 GMT -5
I don't have any direct technical qualms with the order of your Lightweight list, however, I did want to throw in a few details, just for continued discussion. I'm in total agreement that what one fighter does at Super-feather should not influence his ranking among the Lightweights. It's obvious that Juan Diaz had established himself before he was absolutely picked apart, even embarrassed, by Campbell, and that his status should be safe for the time being, in the top three. However, I have to look to Juan Manuel Marquez, overall, including his victory over Casamayor (and without ignorance of his place in the p4p, or his arguable lack-of a decision in the second Pacquiao fight - considering the weight class) and figure that his place, at least in the minds of most writers and enthusiasts, is above Diaz.
Technically, if we're playing by the rules here, your list is more than fair, but to switch gears on an entirely subjective level (which might actually be theoretically objective) Diaz's win over Katsidis does not out-due a stoppage of Casamayor in a lightweight debut, especially when considering who stopped him. It was impressive and promising to see Diaz come back from such an unconvincing show against Campbell, and box his ass off. However, his fight with Campbell showed that a) he was a bit slow b) he was under-prepared, c) he was mentally beaten by the 5th round, and d) not only did Campbell pick him apart but he let Diaz know vocally and gesturally what he was doing while in the midst of beating him on every level. There was one judge who apparently wasn't watching the fight, giving it to Juan, and one judge who had it right on the button, 116-111 to Campbell. There isn't a single true fan who thinks that Campbell can do to Marquez...what he did to Diaz. I'm not proposing that Campbell couldn't somehow beat Marquez, but certainly not in such a dominant fashion.
The only (possible) prominent future lightweight bout that makes sense in my eyes is a bout between Campbell and Marquez. It's the eye opener, must see, beauty that defines our excitement for the sport.
Changing subjects a bit. As a side note..., our own official pound for pound list should include Chris John. In a nutshell, Here's why; Is he your #1 ranked Featherweight? Yes. Is he undefeated? Yes. Did he stop or at least dominate the majority of his opponents? Of course. Did he beat Juan Manuel Marquez (a top p4p fighter)? Indeed. Although in Indonesia, and with the possibility of bias, John still came away with the decision, which technically...we can't ignore, if we're going to stick to some semblance of the rules. I'm in no way advocating putting John anywhere near Marquez on this hypothetical list, to be fair, but he belongs in the top 12.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 21, 2008 0:44:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the input and I totally see your point. I really have to constantly fight the urge to take these rankings to the realm of theoretical outcomes and to not make assumption on what I THINK would happen if so and so fought the other guy...
I think that while the Marquez win over Casamayor was more impressive than the Diaz win over Katsidis, we also have to take into consideration Diaz's entire body of work which saw him score impressive wins over the likes of Julio Diaz, Jose Cotto, Acelino Freitas and Randy Suico among others...But, yeah, Campbell/Marquez is THE fight to make at 135 right now.
P.S. You should check out the Chris John/Marquez fight on Youtube. IMO, it was a total screw job against Marquez.
|
|
|
Post by T.Mag56 on Nov 21, 2008 19:54:07 GMT -5
The WBO has Gamboa at #5 on their top 10 Featherweights. The IBO has M. Pacquiao as their #1 at 135 (w/ Diaz as the Champion). David Haye has already found himself in the top 10 for both the IBO and the WBO, at #7 and #3 respectably. Haye has one fight at heavyweight. Pacquiao has one fight at Lightweight. I think the general consensus is that their overall careers be considered, with emphasis on recent fights, in combination with their potential at their current weight. No one is handing Haye a belt, here, but to ignore his immediate influence at Heavyweight, as far as potential and stature, would be putting several less-relevant names above him. The same goes for J.M. Marquez, who I'm sure (once the new rankings are released) will be in the top three among Lightweights, with an overall sentiment that he be considered #1 or #2.
Then again, to support your conservative (and fair) philosophy, the WBO has Amir Khan at #2 among Lightweights. In many ways, your strategy makes more sense.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Magno on Nov 21, 2008 21:23:06 GMT -5
The WBO has Gamboa at #5 on their top 10 Featherweights. The IBO has M. Pacquiao as their #1 at 135 (w/ Diaz as the Champion). David Haye has already found himself in the top 10 for both the IBO and the WBO, at #7 and #3 respectably. Haye has one fight at heavyweight. Pacquiao has one fight at Lightweight. I think the general consensus is that their overall careers be considered, with emphasis on recent fights, in combination with their potential at their current weight. No one is handing Haye a belt, here, but to ignore his immediate influence at Heavyweight, as far as potential and stature, would be putting several less-relevant names above him. The same goes for J.M. Marquez, who I'm sure (once the new rankings are released) will be in the top three among Lightweights, with an overall sentiment that he be considered #1 or #2. Then again, to support your conservative (and fair) philosophy, the WBO has Amir Khan at #2 among Lightweights. In many ways, your strategy makes more sense. IMO, the only sane way to do these rankings is the BTBC way. To use anything other than facts to structure the ranking leaves the whole list up to opinion and conjecture...Many times those opinions are good, many times they are influenced by prejudices, ignorance, money, etc...and there's no way to figure out the "who's"and the "why's" behind subjective rankings, so concrete facts, structured around the way the sport actually works, are the best way to go...
|
|
|
Post by Damon on Nov 24, 2008 20:49:35 GMT -5
Question for you, Paul: The five to watch in each category, would you consider the next five, in other words the fighters ranked 21-25 in each division, or just the five guys, in no particular order, most on the verge of cracking the top 20? Thanks in advance!
|
|